2.09.2006

Some Clarifications On General Revelation

In light of some of the discussion generated by my post Moore Or Less To The Point, I have decided to make some clarifications on my views of general revelation. I do not have all the answers, but while looking for the answers I am most definately working within a particular framework of presuppositions.

First, all revelation, whether general or special, is propositional. A proposition is the meaning of a declarative sentence. An imperative, for example, is, strictly speaking, meaningless. "Run up the stairs!" is neither true nor false. However, when someone says, "Run up the stairs!" we understand this by means of a proposition that can be expressed by the declarative sentence: "So-and-so is commanding me to run up the stairs." This statement is true or false. When God, in the Scriptures, commands, "Repent and be saved!", we understand this by means of a proposition that can be expressed in the declarative sentence: "God commands me to repent and be saved."

Any talk about revelation being personal is lost upon me if one means anything other than God is a person and reveals propositions to us, who are also persons. If one wants to retreat to mystic metaphor, neo-orthodox encounter, or whatever, then I have no notion of what is being said. This view that I am espousing implies that a tree is not a revelation. Revelation must be a proposition and a proposition alone.

Second, propositions are expressed via language, and all propositions can, in principle, be expressed in language. One must make allowances for a broader understanding of this point. For instance, it is, in principle, possible to express the entirety of the Scriptures via smoke signals; however, one might run out of wood before the Pentateuch is completed. There also may be a language where they have no word for "happy", but it is not the fault of language but of the vocabulary of that particular language. One could easily make up a word for happy.

With this stated, there is no thought cannot be expressed with words. There are no thoughts about God that are beyond words. The only things that are "beyond" words are, I would say, nonsense and qualia. Qualia is the subjective experience of sensation. When I look at a tomato, I can tell you about the tomato, but I cannot express the actual color that I experience when I see it because the color red, in this instance, is not an object of knowledge but of experience. This is to say that revelation is not approximately true or analogically true. It is literally true. To say that God is good is not to bring God down to our level; it is not, as some pious souls would have you believe, more untrue than it is true. Language does not bring God down to our level, but, in some sense, it is God bringing us up to His level.

Third, language consists in signifiers that point in some way to things that are signified. The letters "G-O-D" are not special letters, but per our convetion of language we recognize that this combination of letters signifies God. Or, similarly, the letters "R-E-D" are simply, according to our convention, the combination of letters that signifies the qualia that we experience when we look at a ripe tomato or blood, for instance. (Wittgenstein's discussion of this subject--his beetle in the box analogy--is quite interesting; maybe I'll do a post about that later). With this said, signifiers do not have to be words as understood in common parlance. Hand signals in Sign Language would qualify as signifiers. In fact, it is quite possible that blinks of an eye, stones on the ground, or puffs of smoke from a campfire could be signifiers of propositions.

Fourth, what makes something a signifier is a convention between people. I assume one could say that a convention of language could be made with oneself: Daniel has made for his book a language that only he himself knows. However, the language could not be used to communicate to someone else. So, in order for there to be a language, there must be a convention amongst people as to what counts as a signifier and what the signifiers mean. Of course, this is a little compressed: one would need to understand more than semantics; one would need syntax and, presumably, pragmatics. With that said, one can not look at a sheet of Cuneiform and expect to understand it without having partaken of the convention that stipulated what each signifier in Cuneiform represented. This is what we do when we learn English in school; namely, partake of the convetion of the English language.

One would need to know the convention of a particular language before one could understand what is being signified. And once one knows the convention of the language, they can understand what is being communicated. Now, if one wanted to assert that nature, in some way, is a language, albeit a very simple language, then one could do so. By calling nature a language I would mean that the mountains and hills and rivers are somehow signifiers much like the letters on this page are; they are meant to signify something. However, one must understand and believe the convention of that language prior to "reading" nature. And since, given the previous discussion, general revelation would not be nature itself but the conventions of the language of nature (or to say it in another way: general revelation would be the propositions about God and the creation that we would need to know prior to seeing the attributes of God declared in nature), we must conclude that general revelation is something innate in us.

What does this mean in connection with our discussion? It means that in order for someone to look at nature and "see" the attributes of God, one must already understand and believe the conventions of the language of nature; namely they must already understand and believe truths about God and the created order. In this case, trying to prove the existence of God from nature requires that one already accept that God exists and nature is His creation. This is not a problem for me, because I already believe this. So when I look at creation I can see God's immutable power, because I understand and believe certain truths about God and creation. However, to a Darwinist who does not believe those truths about nature and God, this talk of design and general revelation is nonsense. It is as if we are showing him a piece of paper with scribble from a child. He has first to believe that it is a language and then, eventually, understand and believe the conventions (or propositions) about that language.

If we direct a Darwinist to nature and say: "See, it declares the attributes of God!" He will turn to us and say, "You poor, dear fellow. For you to say that nature tells us anything about God is akin to me pointing to tracks on the ground made by deer and saying, 'See this is an exposition of Euclid's axiomatic geometry!'"

I hope my point is coming across: nature doesn't delcare anything to anyone unless and until they accept certain truths about God and creation. Then and only then does it actually communicate anything to us. But, by this point, we are already Christians! We must first convince that Darwinist that Christianity is true before we can convince him that nature "declares" anything to us at all. But this is simply saying we must get the Darwinist to understand and believe the Bible before we can get them to understand what nature is saying to us. However, this poses a problem because the supporter of ID thinks that this is backwards. He wants some point of contact between the believer and unbeliever, when, in fact, there is none. However, Moore's admission that we have to go to the Bible to get "the truth" about God and creation is telling. Nature isn't enough to prove the truth, in fact, according to Moore it "proves too much", though, of course, I would say it proves nothing. The ID proponent wants to use the Darwinist's own premises to prove the existence of God, but this is impossible because the Darwinist must first accept certain presuppositions of the Christian, which is entirely the point at issue.

Now, this is not to say that pagans do not look at the starry sky above and think that there must be a creator of all this. In this case, it would be a pure accident that this gentleman believed the truth. There are several ways, I suppose, that this could be considered accidental. Firstly, many people look at human history and say, "This shows that man is inherently good." Others look at human history and say, "This shows that man is inherently evil.' Still others look at human history and say, "This shows absolutely nothing about the moral make-up of man." You are going to get men of all three persuasions; I would say that the last gentleman is correct, the second is correct in his conclusion but fallacious in his reasoning. The point is this: there are, presumably, a finite number of options as to nature being created: either it was or it wasn't. You will get pagans opining both options; that some happen to be right does not mean that their method is appropriate. A child may guess the correct problem to a differential calculus equation, but that does not mean that his method was appropriate.

Now, let me try to make it all make sense. God creates us with innate propositions; facts about Him and creation. However, as sinners we either fail to understand these propositions or fail to believe them. So, when we look at nature we do not see creation, but evolution. Or, we only understand and believe some of the propositions so we get a skewed belief about the Creator and the creation. Or, possibly, we do not understand or believe any of these God-given propositions, but through our pagan philosophies we come to believe certain propositions that are akin to the God-given ones that cause us to conclude that there is a really powerful femine god that created the world. And so on. That Moore had to retreat to the Scriptures (always a good thing) in order to make sure that we understand nature correctly only strengthens my point: we must understand and believe the Scriptures before nature "says" anything true to us. But by this point, we are already Christians and it is pointless to point to nature to prove the existence of God because we already believe in Him if we "see" anything true in nature. (Again, there are accidents were people correctly guess something. For instance, a person who doesn't know a bit of Greek may rightly guess that nomos means law, but we would not say that they are correctly reading Greek.)

Revelation is always propositional; nature doesn't "tell" us anything about God unless and until we are already Christians and thus "speaking the language" that God is using in nature. To further complicate matters, there is still the epistemological problems of empiricism and the philosophical problems of science. If you expect the goal of science to be truth, then you are going to be disappointed. However, if you think that the goal of science is to invent useful things, then it doesn't matter what the Darwinist says. Let me know if this makes my position more clear to yall.

14 Comments:

At 10:53 AM, Blogger Zac said...

I have not denied that general revelation is innate in everyone. In fact, I assert that it is. However, because of our fallen nature (which is exactly what Romans 1 says) we either do not understand or if we do understand we do not believe the propositions of general revelation.

What does it mean that pagans "knew God"? It certainly does not mean that they believed the facts about God, or else they wouldn't have turned away.

So, I would say that they knew the language in that God created them with the innate propositions, at least some of them, to understand something about God. However, it is these propositions that were known about God, and not the trees or rivers that told them anything about God. However, they then "suppressed" (in the language of Romans 1) this truth (perhaps before birth!), and now no longer understand nor believe the conventions of the language of nature (if one wants to call nature a language).

"I think nature can lead anyone, not only Christians to understand the omnipotence of God. "

I can agree with this sentence, but not with what you meant by it. People can be led to believe the omnipotence of God through contemplating mathematics, but that doesn't mean it's a valid or appropriate method. People can be led to God by being shot and considering their own mortality. That doesn't mean we should shoot people. And finally, to show that this is method is fallacious, I would point back to the child who guessed correctly at a calculus problem. Sure, he can be "led" to the truth by guessing, but are we going to say that his method was good? That it will work again? Or that it can garuntee the truthfulness of his answer?

"Question: Do you equivocate with your usage of the word "science?" Or do you always refer the "scientific community?" I use science in the pure sense, and I would consider exegesis of the Scriptures to be science, the gathering of knowledge."

I'm refering to science as it is commonly understood: that knowledge can be arrive at through observation, the scientific method and so forth. If one wants to call exegesis a "science" and mean exegesis leads to knowledge, then I'm OK with that. But, if one wants to say that it is a science like chemistry or biology, then you're either misunderstanding chemistry and biology, exegesis or both.

"It is the "scientific community" who has maligned science, but that doesn't mean we can't reclaim the true meaning of the word. "

I can agree with this, if you mean that science simply means knowledge and does not in any way refer to "the scientific method" or acquiring knowledge through empirical observation, or that the branches of science are in any way capable of granting knowledge even if done from a "christian" perspective.

 
At 11:00 AM, Blogger Zac said...

To make my point clearer, let me say this:

While pagans definately knew the "rules of the language of nature" at one point, they apparently do not believe it now. The ID movement or any movement that seeks to prove God or any of his attributes by appealing to nature is mistaken. How so? Because it is obvious, for example, that the Darwinist does not understand or believe the presuppositions that are required to "see" the language. By appealing to nature, we are urging the Darwinist to accept our presuppositions about what nature "says".

But what is the reason why we are getting them to see what nature says? It must be for the purpose of getting the Darwinist to agree with our presuppositions about God and creation. Do you not see the circle here? We need for the Darwinist to agree to our presuppositions in order for them to "see" what nature says in order for them to agree to our presuppositions.

If one is honest, then we realize that the whole "appealing to nature" bit is misguided. The whole issue is "Do they believe our presuppositions?" The appeal to nature is a fifth wheel; it is not needed. And, in fact, is fallacious to appeal to it. The Darwinist will accuse us of begging the question; which is precisely what we are doing. While a proposition implies itself, it does not imply its own truthfulness. In this case we must presuppose the truthfullness of our presuppositions about God and nature.

This is not to deny that many people come to believe in an omnipotent God by observing nature. People may come to believe in an omnipotent God by observing the plastic, red cup on my desk right now. Both are equally fallacious in reasoning with someone who does not accept our presuppositions.

Our method should be to admit that we cannot prove the existence of God, destroy the unbeliever's presuppositions and offer our system as a consistent alternative.

 
At 11:03 AM, Blogger Zac said...

The plastic, red cup bit was to show that people come to believe true things for really, really bad reasons all the time. If we serve a God of truth, we should rejoice that God is merciful and brings people to Him even through really, really bad means (such as appealing to nature), but we ought not to conduct ourselves dishonestly in appealing to methods we know to be fallacious.

Note well that Paul does not appeal to nature to prove the existence of God to anyone. Paul or any biblical author NEVER appeals to anything to prove the existence of God or the truth of the Scriptures. They all merely presuppose them to be so.

 
At 11:21 AM, Blogger Zac said...

I think you're using some terms differently here. A mountain cannot be innate. A mountain, theoretically, could be a signifier because of some PROPOSITION that is innate and believed by us that says "A mountain stands for such-and-such."

No one is denying that the creation told people things, if this is properly understood. We both admit that this phrase must be interpreted to be understood. For example, chipmunks didn't run up to Cain and Able and say, "God is omnipotent!"

Creation is speaking now, because God intends for people to see creation and behold His goodness. In this sense, creation speaks even to the blind and deaf; they are just unable to hear and see it. But note well, the roar of a water fall does not say ANYTHING in itself considered. A mountain does not say ANYTHING in itself considered. It can only say something if God intends it to be a signifier.

Now, a mountain qua mountain is not a signifier. It becomes a signifier for someone only if someone believes certain propositions about that mountain, namely something like "This mountain stands for such-and-such".

"It seems to be the signifiers that are innate, not the propositions."

I think, perhaps, you are not understanding me. What is a signifier? Do you mean the object that is functioning as a signifier? If so, this is impossible. A mountain, as I have already said, cannot be "innate". That is nonsense. Do you mean a signifier qua signifier is innate? Well what does that mean? What is a signifier other than something that signifies something else? How does it signify something else? By the person believing certain propositions about the object and its relation to the thing signified. Thus, a sifnifier is really just a proposition (or set of propositions).

"I think that because of the truth of these verses, atheists do know the language, yet the knowledge that the language communicates is ignored/supressed/perverted or whatever. If we didn't all have the ability to read nature in this way, why would Paul say "since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them?" "

If someone "ignores/supresses/perverts" the language, do they then still know it? By know it I mean do they understand and believe it? Is it something that they use in seeking to make sense out of their experience? The answer would have to be "no". So, they do not know the language in that they either do not understand it anymore or they do not believe it. This is all that matters. What God is declaring is evident to them because God intends for people to look at nature and "see" God's omnipotence, but in order for this to happen, one must already believe the conventions of the language being used. This does not make God's communication any less clear or evident, but it means that the Darwinist or atheist will not listen to it because they are "deaf" to it.

When we point to nature and, metaphorically, say "Listen to God's glory being declared", they are, as it were, deaf to it becasue they do not believe the conventions of the language. It will do not good to continue to point at the mountain. They will only "hear" the language if and only if they believe the conventions of the language. They will only believe the conventions of the language when they become a Christian.

 
At 11:25 AM, Blogger Zac said...

God has not "proved" anything by nature, if you mean by prove what the ID people or people who believe in the cosmological argument for God mean. To prove something you deduce it from premises that are assumed to be true. That is, I can prove Z by deducing it from X and Y, but I've got to deduce X and Y from previous premises. Eventually I will get back to premises that I just presuppose to be true. The problem is that the atheist doesn't accept our presuppositions. God can prove something true to someone who accepts the right presuppositions, or He can cause them to change their presuppositions. But on atheistic and Darwinistic presuppositions, nature does not communicate anything, at least not anything valid and/or true.

My point is this: the problem is not that the atheist needs to pay more attention to the design in nature. Observing more trees will never get them to "see" what God is saying. It is only by abandoning their presuppositions and accepting the Scriptural ones can we "see" what God is communicating.

 
At 11:42 AM, Blogger Zac said...

Just in case someone missed it (as I did at first), Daniel posted a great post up above.

 
At 12:49 PM, Blogger Zac said...

"but it can just as easily mean "among" and in the context this is even more likely."

Two things can be said. If our logical considerations are true, then it means that "among" isn't more likely. But even if it were, that statement of Paul still needs to be interpreted. What does it mean? What, exactly, are you saying? That revelation doesn't have to be propositional? Or if it is, then mountains, somehow, communicate propositions directly to the mind without any type of interpretation? Do the letters on this blog actually communicate anything to you or do we all agree that these letters point to ideas and these ideas are that which is communicated?

"Did they see via the scientific method that Lazarus had been raised from the dead? Yes, and that clearly points to a supernatural attribute of Jesus Christ."

No, they could have been delusional. They could have imagined Lazarus being dead. It could have been a hoax. You're still appealing to an empirical epistemology, which I think is bankrupt. Could the Jews be sure, based upon their senses, that there even was a Lazarus in front of them much less God incarnate?

"I didn't mean that the actual signifier was innate, but the concept. So that when someone sees Mt. Everest, they have an innate ability to understand omnipotence."

I think you're over simplifying the issue to the point that it's not consistent. If an unbeliever does not believe the presuppositions (i.e., the conventions of the language of nature) of the Scriptures, then they do not have the ability to "hear" what creation is saying. One must first believe and then one can see that creation displays the glory of God.

 
At 1:05 PM, Blogger Zac said...

I've got to go on the run, but I think a lot of the problems are coming from equivocations in the uses of terms like "know". For instance, I would say that they Pharisees did not "know" that Lazarus had been raised. They believed it, but that's a far cry from knowing it.

I don't think one can have an empirical epistemology and still be consistent with the Scriptures.

I'll write something else when I get the chance.

 
At 2:43 PM, Blogger Zac said...

"Doesn't empirical data have to be trusted somewhere? "

Not in the search for knowledge.

"If the Scriptures are our starting point, we still need to trust our eyes to take in light and our brain to interpret the Scriptures."

It's precisely because our starting point is the Scriptures that we do not trust our senses.

Observing black marks on white paper cannot give us knowledge of God or anything.

"We can't just have the Scriptures dumped in our brain osmotically. "

What did Jesus say to Peter after Peter confessed that Jesus was the Christ the Son of the Living God?

"Blessed are you Peter . . . for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you . . . " A paraphrase might be "Blessed are you Peter . . . for you did not arrive at this truth by empirical observation."

In God we live and move and have our being; Christ enlightens the mind all all men coming into the world.

 
At 2:43 PM, Blogger Zac said...

I shall say: Of course the senses play a part in the acquisition of knowledge; eating breakfast also plays a part. The essential point is to elucidate what part it plays.

 
At 2:58 PM, Blogger Zac said...

Well, under an empirical epistemology, you couldn't.

Under mine, I would say that God is sovereign and can and does immediately impart knowledge of the Scriptures to you.

 
At 2:58 PM, Blogger Zac said...

I'll post something tonight or tomorrow about it.

 
At 9:12 AM, Blogger Zac said...

"Do you mean by the above comment that a priori logical considerations determine your lexical study of the Word of God? I think that the meaning of the Word is best arrived at through an examination of syntax and context. "

I'm not exactly sure what you mean with your question, but I'll try to give it my best shot and I'll see if I hit close to it.

When we approach any text (e.g., the Bible, the news paper, or this blog), we all make presuppositions. We always approach it with "baggage". It's impossible to get rid of it; some have seen this and then say "Well, let's just try to reduce the baggage that we bring to it." Even that statement is nonsense. You can't reduce it, you can only make it harder for yourself to detect.

So any one who says that some calvinists are wrong in that they try to filter the Word through their system just do not understand very much in this regards. A particular calvinist may have a faulty system that he tries to filter the Word through, but he can't be faulted for "filtering" it through a system. Every one does this; it just so happens that it's usually the calvinists who have a more coherent and explicit system. Even by making the statement that people out not to filter the Word through their system, but their system through the word are, now, filtering the Word through their system.

It's complicated, but yeah. With that said: i was actually referring to the logical considerations of my actual blog post. If what I said about revelation, language and the like were true, then it is impossible that a mountain qua mountain could "say" anything. Only a mountain qua signifier could say anything, and then it only says something because those who "hear" it understand and believe the conventions of the "language" being spoken (spoken by God, not the mountains).

Thus, this blog doesn't say anything to you. These black marks on the screen don't actually teach you anything. I am attempting to communicated with you by means of signs, but these marks (that we call letters) qua marks don't actually say anything. (Of course I'm leaving out a lot in regards to this: read Augustine's De Magistro)

"The context should determine what contour of the semantic range with which we translate a word."

And part of the context, in fact the essential part I would argue, is logical considerations. If you attempt to interpret a verse so that it contradicts other verses or is nonsensical, then, Houston, we have a problem.

"Nevertheless, one cannot place stock as weighty as epistemology upon the foundation of a possible translation of a preposition."

I'm not placing epistemology on the translation of a preposition. I'm placing the preposition on my epistemology. I consider it illogical to say that a mountain qua mountain says anything. One must first believe inorder to understand. Thus Augustine and Anselm said "Credo ut intelligam".

I am thoroughly enjoying this discussion. Thanks for posting on my blog! I love you brother.

 
At 10:51 AM, Blogger Zac said...

"Then I guess my logical presupposition would be that the meaning of a word is determined by its semantic range in conjunction with the immediate context in which it is found. In other words, we only know what a word means in a particular context."

I think the point is being missed. No one is denying any of this. We are simply saying that if X is logically impossible, then X cannot be true. However you want to render the preposition as long as the understanding is that a mountain qua mountain cannot tell you anything. Start making random marks on a piece of paper with a pen and it will say nothing. If you intentionally write something in English and Liz understands and believes the conventions of the English language, then you are communicating with her. However, is not the marks on the paper that tell her anything, they merely poin to propositions that she believes.

"but my system should be subservient to the translation, shouldn't it?"

No, it's impossible. People do change their systems, but it's part of your system to say 'I would first see what the context bears upon the word.' That's exactly my point, you can't get to the text first and then bring you system to bear on it. By getting to the text you must go through your system.

But, again, no one is denying good hermeneutics here. This is, in fact, as far as I see it a side issue. We would say that if you look at the immediate context you cannot consider as a possibility those things which are logically impossible. You can only consider that which is logically possible. Out of those possibilities, you make your choice.

Also, again I think my point has been missed. No one is saying that nature doesn't play a part in people coming to Christ. We're saying nature shouldn't play a part. For instance, some people may come to Christ because of a really crappy summer camp where the gospel is barely there, if at all. That God is merciful and calls people to Himself though these bad means says nothing about that we should use these methods.

If you point an unbeliever to nature and say "See, this declares the glory of God". Unless they already believe it, they will say, "No it doesn't." If they already believe it, then your pointing to nature hasn't accomplished anything, because they already believe in some kind of design. If they don't believe that there is design in nature, you haven't accomplished anything because what you've said to the unbeliever is nonsense. All you've simply done is to say, "You're wrong and I'm right about creation!" This won't move too many unbelievers.

Our point is that for any reasoning person, pointing to nature is useless because it doesn't prove anything. Now, people are brought into the kingdom by shady means all the time and I rejoice at the fact that they are brought in nonetheless. However, we do not operate deceitfully, ya know?

 

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